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Subject: IFR Question
 
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johnsoncasaUser is Offline
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11/29/2011 8:32 PM  
Alright, would appreciate input, advice and references. http://tiles.skyvector.com/sky/files/tpp/1112/pdf/00356ILD22L.PDF ILS or DME/LOC Rwy 22L. Here is the situation: Aircraft equipment-VOR receiver, ADF receiver, NO DME. Can I legally fly the ILS Rwy 22L approach under IMC? Why? Why Not?
sns3guppyUser is Offline
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11/29/2011 10:13 PM  
The link doesn't work for me. Name the location for the procedure.
koryurekUser is Offline
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11/30/2011 1:20 AM  
DME is not only required for approach but also  from Intermediate Approach  to Missed Approach segments.

So, the approach chart here is named LOC Rwy 29, but if you check the restrictions it says VOR & DME is required.( The chart here is just for training purpose,not for navigation )

Can you please put here a simple picture of the approach you want to ask and let us talk about it?






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HelibearUser is Offline
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12/17/2011 11:14 AM  
You need DME, or an IFR approved GPS. Somehow you need to identify the stepdown fixes.
motoxer66User is Offline
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01/13/2012 11:09 PM  
You are able to fly the ils only...understand that if the glideslope fails you go missed immediately because don't have dme...when flying while relying on the ils frequency the gps/dme is there for a backup and or redundancy since it is a ils or dme/loc...if you are going to use the adf (which is crap) use it as redundancy....if you look at 91.205 (d) dme is only required when flying above FL240....and then notice that the aircraft is required to have all radio equipment required to use the radio Navaids along your route/approach...hope this helps also note that I'm not referencing to the above plate just your initial question hope this helps
sns3guppyUser is Offline
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01/15/2012 1:40 AM  
The original poster has never bothered to respond (why ask the question then walk away?), and has failed to provide the approach in question, but if the procedure requires DME, then it requires DME. One can't simply fly the ILS with the idea that one will go missed if the glideslope goes away. One can't fly the procedure in the first place, without DME. One can't pick and choose which components one will have, if the procedure specifically calls them out as "DME Required."
motoxer66User is Offline
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01/15/2012 3:52 AM  
I agree that is silly to ask and then never respond to any answers.....and I agree if the approach requires DME then it MUST be used while doing the approach...my response was to the OG question where he asked for ILS or DME/LOC and not to the plate that was provided in the next response where DME is specifically required as highlighted. It is possible to fly a ILS or DME/LOC and only use the ILS and if DME is not specifically required to use the ILS...one may use a timed method rather than distance IF DME is not specifically required and time can be used as a backup/situational awareness to note the aircraft should be at a certain point in space after a certain amount of time upon passing the FAF and reaching reaching minimums...remember when flying the approach one may request the ILS only if there is no dme in the aircraft and should remind the approach frequency that the aircraft is not DME equipped if they attempt to give the DME/LOC approach which in most cases they will give you the ILS unless the glideslope is INOP in which case someone didnt do their homework before they left. And to clear up the loss of glide slope going missed thing...all I was saying is that in this current situation and current aircraft and as a general topic if only relying on the ILS and one cannot use the LOC minimums which are always higher than ILS minimums and must go missed and most likely go to and alternate. Once again I fully agree with what you are saying I just responded to the question and did not reference off of the plate in the next response.
motoxer66User is Offline
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01/15/2012 3:57 AM  
One more thing to add in the plate provided by the poster and responder both procedures require DME my responses were to a general outlook on the question
sns3guppyUser is Offline
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01/16/2012 3:10 AM  
A timed approach while flying the glideslope is redundant and irrelevant, so long as one has the glideslope, and follows it, because the determining factor for locating the MAP is DA/DH.

DME or timing, or markers/NDB's come into play when one no longer has the glideslope, is flying the localizer-only, or initiates an early missed approach. In the case of the latter, one may initiate the climb early, but not the turn, until reaching the missed approach point.

DME may be required for a number of reasons, which may include an arc to join final, identification of step-down fixes (which won't be found or predicted based on timing), and execution of the missed approach procedure (including turns, course, and holds).

In many cases, radar may be used in lieu of DME, and precision radar or compass locators may be substituted for marker beacons. DME may be substituted for marker beacons, too, but only when specified in the procedure. GPS may be substituted for DME in terminal, enroute, and area operations, including approaches.

Glideslope minimums, incidentally, aren't always higher than localizer minimums.

remember when flying the approach one may request the ILS only if there is no dme in the aircraft and should remind the approach frequency that the aircraft is not DME equipped


One may request the ILS only if there is no DME in the aircraft? Say again? Having DME doesn't ever preclude one from requesting an approach.

If you're saying one may request an approach specifying DME required if there is no DME in the aircraft, that's an untrue statement unless an acceptable substitute exists. If one has an approach-approved GPS with a current database (or the fixes applicable to the procedure are verifiable from an expired database, and a RAIM/FDE check shows correctly), or precision radar, those may be substituted, but one can't be in a situation where one doesn't have the required equipment or acceptable substitutes, and still request the procedure that requires DME. ATC doesn't have authority to waive the requirements of the procedure, you don't, either. Notifying ATC that you're not DME equipped isn't good enough.

SupremoUser is Offline
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01/16/2012 10:02 PM  
Hey Cem That looks like a VERY interesting approach into some rough terrain. Is this one typical of your country? Hope this finds you and your family well. Rocky

Risk is the price you pay to avoid a dull life.
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