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Subject: Logbook problem
 
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JUser is Offline
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11/29/2010 2:07 PM  
I recently reviewed my logbook to make exact entries into an electronic logbook program. While doing so I noticed differences in the verbal remarks and totaled number of instrument approaches. I started changing the totals to match the verbal note. My intentions were to make accurate entries, both verbal and numberical. The next morning I woke up sweating. I couldn't believe what I had done - with whiteout no less! I do have a photocopies of the original pages put away. All whiteout has been thrown out. I am asking for helpful advice from people who have relevant insight. I'm ready to do whatever necessary to make this right. I've already chewed myself out. What should be my next step to correct this? What should I consider before doing anything? Do I go to the FAA office with the logbook & photocopies to confess and beg for mercy? How do I make this right? How can this logbook be present as solid proof of anything? Some lessons already learned - Don't work on logbooks at 2 a.m.; Don't allow the inner bean counter to possess your mind; After you earned something, history is acceptible the way it was so changing written errors is meaningless - leave it alone.
BrianacrUser is Offline
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11/29/2010 4:03 PM  
I have some white out in my logbook. We are all human and make mistakes.
kodozUser is Offline
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11/29/2010 7:11 PM  
If you were going to falsify your logbook, you could have done it less conspicuously without whiteout. At the end of the day, you still sign every page attesting to the accuracy of the entries, right?
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11/29/2010 8:56 PM  
The only thing you have to be correct and accurate in as regards logging flight time is for proof of recency, or for a rating. The rest is up for grabs and anything you want to put in it. However, if you make any false statements for flight time it could bite you in the ass if you have an accident or incident and the insurance company comes checking your logbook for time. If anything is not provable or substantiated, you could be in for a rough time and possible prosecution. I seriously doubt anyone is going to check down to the minute and mistakes in math are common. However, hundreds of hours are not an acceptable level of error? Common sense is applicable and your mileage may vary.

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Trans LiftUser is Offline
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11/29/2010 10:06 PM  
Yeah I would relax a bit. I have whiteout in my logbook in a few places. Don't worry about it too much. If anyone ever does check it and I have never had mine checked yet, then they MIGHT ask you about the whiteout but as long as you aren't falsifying records then you will be fine.
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11/30/2010 9:17 AM  
For the past couple of years I have been doing my logbook in pencil because of the oddities flying with students and getting off by a 1/10 or two and I need to stay accurate for them. Pencil is as permanent as ink and sometimes more so but doesn't require whiteout or garbage writing. My student records folder are always done in pencil because of the frequent chances of error entries and resulting corrections. When you do back to back students and have to rely on notes it can lead to errors. Maybe at my stage in life it isn't as important and indeed gets to be a pain in the ass to fill out the logbook.

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dempdUser is Offline
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11/30/2010 5:19 PM  
I was sitting at the examiner's desk, as he went through my logbook just before my Private check ride.  He pushed it over to my instructor an said, "all of these flights aren't cross country."(apparently my instructor thought any flight to another airport was considered cross country?).  My instructor then, got out the "whiteout" and spent the next few minutes fixing my logbook (right there in front of the examinar)!

You'll be fine.
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11/30/2010 6:55 PM  
Thats crazy that an instructor didn't know that.
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12/01/2010 8:48 AM  
Hopefully that was tongue in cheek. If not, the quality of instruction has slipped even more than I thought.

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dempdUser is Offline
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12/01/2010 6:07 PM  
Actually she was an excellent instructor, one of the best with whom I've ever flown!  I think perhaps she had gotten the regs mixed up a bit, she had come over from a career as a corporate fixed-wing pilot, and I think I was her first helicopter student.
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12/02/2010 11:43 AM  
That does not exempt her from being aware of the FAR's and requirements regardless of how many students she has had. For a CFI to have no knowledge of it, and the standard,s is an example of how the instructional standards have slipped.
If she is the best, you have been short sheeted.

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12/02/2010 12:32 PM  
Posted By dempd on 11/30/2010 5:19 PM
You'll be fine.

Professing “you’ll be fine” after a single blunder during a private check-ride has zero creditability.

 

To the OP:

If you catch a logbook entry mistake which occurred in the past, simply make the correction in the next open line. Include an explanation of the mistake and date of occurrence in the remarks section. As already stated, nobody’s perfect and you had no intent to defraud. Additionally, you may already know this, even though it’s not required, fill in the flight hours section on the 8610 form when renewing a CFI (every 2 years). This becomes your historical back-up in case your books are lost for whatever reason. Over a long career, it would be next to impossible to recreate thousands of hours of experience.  


dempdUser is Offline
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12/02/2010 4:49 PM  
Posted By Supremo on 12/02/2010 11:43 AM
That does not exempt her from being aware of the FAR's and requirements regardless of how many students she has had. For a CFI to have no knowledge of it, and the standard,s is an example of how the instructional standards have slipped.
If she is the best, you have been short sheeted.


You must get nose bleeds, looking down on the rest of us, from so high up on that horse.

Don't mistake a simple "clerical" type of error for poor instruction!  I have flown with around forty different instructors, and she stands out as one of the best (and that includes the 10,000 + hr. ones I've also flown with).

I was not "short sheeted"!
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12/02/2010 4:59 PM  
You seem to have a problem with reality. A simple clerical error doesn't mean ignorance of the FARs as far as cross country goes. Forty different instructors in 600 hours? That must be some kind of record. I'm impressed and not positively. What have you learned from all those instructors? It would appear not a helluva lot.
Those who have replied to your posts are pros for the most part and have been forthright and honest. You seem to feel you are special judging from your posts and again, you and I will never agree on anything. This will be my last response to your sniviling self serving nonsense.

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dempdUser is Offline
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12/02/2010 5:30 PM  
Posted By Supremo on 12/02/2010 4:59 PM
You seem to have a problem with reality. A simple clerical error doesn't mean ignorance of the FARs as far as cross country goes. Forty different instructors in 600 hours? That must be some kind of record. I'm impressed and not positively. What have you learned from all those instructors? It would appear not a helluva lot.
Those who have replied to your posts are pros for the most part and have been forthright and honest. You seem to feel you are special judging from your posts and again, you and I will never agree on anything. This will be my last response to your sniviling self serving nonsense.


What's it like being so perfect?
JUser is Offline
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12/02/2010 7:44 PM  
I should have included this to begin with for clarification - after making corrections the totals were lower than before. I wasn't looking to pad any hours. Hidesight is 20/20. Besides, it was completely acceptible at checkride time. I guess the moral is leave well enough alone. But from now on a single line adjustment sounds like the most sensible way to correct anything. Thanks everyone.
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11/26/2011 6:06 AM  
He pushed it over to my instructor an said, "all of these flights aren't cross country."(apparently my instructor thought any flight to another airport was considered cross country?).

Your instructor was correct with regard to the logging of cross country time in general, but but not toward the private.  Different logging requirements exist.  If you were logging toward your ATP, there doesn't even need to be a landing at a different airport involved. 

Cross country, by definition, is flight time in an aircraft performed by someone with an airman certificate, using some form of navigation, that has a landing other than the point of departure. 

For recreational, private, instrument, and commercial certification, one of the landings must be more than 50 nm from the original point of departure.  That isn't necessary to log cross country; just to log it for the requirements of certain certificates and ratings.  For sport pilots, it's just 25 miles.  For the ATP, the 50 nm rule is there, but no landing is required.

The instructor should have known the difference.  He's not expected to be perfect, but he needs to know how to read, and in aviation we deal with precision.  We don't guess, and it doesn't take a very big mistake to hurt or kill someone. 

Besides, it was completely acceptible at checkride time. I guess the moral is leave well enough alone. But from now on a single line adjustment sounds like the most sensible way to correct anything. Thanks everyone.

I have a stack of logbooks; the current one is nearly done, and it's taken over 11 years.  If you guess that mistakes have crept in, you guess correctly.  The first time I went back through a logbook to total things up, I found a lot of errors.  At first I thought I could correct each one individually.  The logbook is a legal document; the proper way to correct is to draw a single line through the error, initial it, and put in the correct information.  However, this isn't practical when numerous errors exist.  It also makes the logbook look tacky, and over the years your logbooks may be reviewed by any number of employers.  I decided against lining out all the errors and the running totals.

Instead, I used a single line to put the correct values down.  If I found 50 hours of error in instrument flight in the last ten years, for example, I'd put a line with 50 hours of instrument time (or -50, if I'd erred by too much), just like I was making a line entry for a specific flight. I'd do the same thing in each column, and then add them into the totals at the bottom of the page, when it was time to finish the page.  I noted in the remarks that it was a correction entry, and included each affected page number.  When the page is done, the totals at the bottom are correct.

Nobody cares how many landings or approaches you had in the past, except for recency of experience in the last 90 days and 6 months.  Otherwise, it just doesn't matter about going back and correcting the past  So long as you've brought the corrections forward to make the current data correct, you're good enough. 


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11/26/2011 7:10 AM  
I switched to electronic a couple of years ago and made a single-line entry to carry over time from my previous hard copies. I have been through a few check rides since then. I always bring the hard copies with me to rides but other than one guy wanting to see the last page of my last hard-copy book, they have gotten little scrutiny.

61.51 makes no mention of whiteout, single-line entries, error correction or logbook format. As long as you're logging the times and operations that you know to be true, which count towards certificates, ratings or currency with the required entries in part B, you're good. Anything beyond that is somebody's opinion.

On a related note, anyone that plans on doing this for a living should invest a little money in an electronic logbook program like Logbook Pro or my favorite, Logten Pro for Mac and iphone. When you start fishing around for jobs, you'll get the stupidest questions from employers about time breakdowns. You can either tally it by hand in a hardcopy and hope you didn't make any mistakes or you can click a couple of things in your program and it will spit out an answer. Then you won't be stumped when someone wants to know how many night IMC cross-country dual-given external load hours you have.

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11/26/2011 9:04 AM  
While Part 61 doesn't specify color of ink, logbook format, issues regarding method of correction, or other manner of keeping track of time, one needs to bear in mind one's purpose in keeping the log.  The logbook is there to meet legal record keeping requirements established under federal regulation.  The logbook is also there to represent one to an employer, for those who go on to seek employment, as well as to track currency. 

There's no regulatory requirement to make a single line correction; it's an issue of neatness, and it's the proper way to annotate a correction on a legal document.  Make a single line through the error and initial it.  The logbook is a legal document. 

Whiteout isn't prohibited by regulation, but looks tacky.  The way the record book is kept tells an employer something about the prospective employee.  A sloppy log doesn't reflect well on a prospective employee.

I have an electronic log, but have never used it for employment.  I've been messing with it for several years now and still haven't got everything entered from the paper logs.  Mostly it gets used in the field to record time on my laptop.  When I'm home I then transfer everything to paper.  I like paper.


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11/26/2011 11:50 PM  
Hey dempd, did you know nearly every FAR is written in blood ? If you are a low time pilot, which you sound like you are, you would do well to listen and heed the higher time pilots lest you accidentally don't make it there. Just a word to the wise. I had a high performance applicant who sounded just like you. I tried to impress upon him the importance of knowing the position of the gear. I tried to share the old there's them that have, and them that will, and that the gear was like a cobra ready to strike,and that it would strike him one day. But he would have none of it, even though I had 100 times his hours. He just thought his thinking on the matter was better than mine. Sounds like you from what I have seen so far. Humility will carry you to a safe and long career. Pride goeth before the fall. No one wants to see you fall, especially without warning you. But the same folks will say they tried to tell you so, and have you to use as an example and warning to less experienced pilots willing to listen.
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12/22/2011 8:15 AM  
Your logbook is your personal account of your flight experience. As long as you make it reflect your actual experience, specifically the required time for ratings and currency requirements, the FAA will be satisfied. Some employers may be pickier but those guys should have stayed in the basement counting beans and everyone would be better off... that being said, I sure wish my logbook was all pretty, done in the same pen, written neatly, nothing crossed out/initialed/whited out but I guess that boat has sailed...
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12/23/2011 3:23 PM  
Posted By skipper on 11/26/2011 11:50 PM
Hey dempd, did you know nearly every FAR is written in blood ?


We are talking about logbooks..right? The FARs are clear as mud in many areas including logging x-country flight. I agree that a CFI should know this, but I think you are being a bit over the top in your last post.
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12/24/2011 2:13 AM  
Posted By ghettobird1 on 12/23/2011 3:23 PM
Posted By skipper on 11/26/2011 11:50 PM
Hey dempd, did you know nearly every FAR is written in blood ?


We are talking about logbooks..right? The FARs are clear as mud in many areas including logging x-country flight. I agree that a CFI should know this, but I think you are being a bit over the top in your last post.


Why is there a cross country requirement for your private ?
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01/07/2012 8:52 PM  
We are talking about logbooks..right? The FARs are clear as mud in many areas including logging x-country flight.


The regulations are crystal clear on the logging of flight time, including the logging of commercial flight time. One need only read them to understand. There is nothing ambiguous about the time requirements, especially for cross-country flight time. It's spelled-out in 14 CFR 61(b)(3), and breaks down exactly what the requirements are for logging cross country in general, and for logging cross country as it applies to each level of certification.

Why is there a cross country requirement for your private ?


What do you mean? Why does the FAA require that you receive instruction in cross country navigation before issuing you a pilot certificate and the private level? Are you serious? Why must you learn to navigate and have a minimum of navigational experience before being cut loose as a pilot? You can really ask that question?



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01/08/2012 6:54 PM  
I was told I was over the top in my last post, and the example was logging cross country flight time. To make my point about why nearly every FAR written is written in blood, I asked that question. If someone who was licensed who wasn't proficient in cross country procedures, had no training, therefore no logbook entry on cross country, ran out of gas, and crashed, prior to the requirement by FAR requiring training and signoff, you can rest assured an FAR would be written to (hopefully) prevent that from ever happening again. It might seem to a less informed observer that the FAR's were written willy nilly, but almost without exception, they weren't. That is why I asked the rhetorical question, and quoted the reply from the poster who said I was over the top.
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02/27/2012 10:16 PM  
dempd; The limited experience of the impressionable student has accepted the conduct of 1 examiner and 1 instructor as being representative of the proper or accepted conduct of the industry (which it transpires has not represented atrue picture at all). The log book requirements are the same in FW and RW, so that straw doesn't float either. This is a path into the realm of CRM; what else would you accept without question (and knowledge)just because of the livery displayed. I find it hard to understand why you are so eager to throw yourself onto a sword when the shields are speaking? Do you check your pads and runways out before landing or just commit yourself because the white paint and windsock are there? On what basis do you say you'll be fine! Reality is a real key in this profession. Steve

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03/30/2012 5:03 PM  
Wow, I hadn't been around for a while but things don't change much. We have experienced pilots/CFIs offering FREE and CORRECT advice and we have low time pilots getting upset at them for telling them like it is.

A new CFI and an old CFI are both supposed to know the Regs or at least how to look them up and find the answer if they aren't sure of something. There is no excuse to not know what to log if you are a active CFI. One of the things we have to do as a CFI is prepare for a lesson and after all lessons are over and it's time to send the student to the DE, they should go over the logbook and all paperwork to make sure there are no mistakes.

dempd : As stated by Oz you are just impressed by your CFI. We've all been there at one time or another where we think we had the best CFI to later when we get more experience realize we were being taken for a ride. I had a CFI many decades ago that didn't want to sign me off to get my private but kept flying around the islands on day trips in my Cherokee6 with me and our girlfriends while I paid for fuel and my airplane expenses but also paid him his CFI time! He was building his time and getting paid while enjoying the day with his girlfriend. Can't get better than that for him.

I didn't realize it until he had enough hours and went to fly with US Customs and I had to get another CFI who quickly signed me off and I got my certificate.

Self discipline is when you do something that you know is right even though you don't want to do it. As a professional and safe pilot you have to maintain control over your desires & emotions. Have INTEGRITY and great WORK ETHIC and you'll succeed in life.
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