Just Helicopters

Mountain Ridge Helicopters Helicopter Flight Training Higher Ground Helicopters Flight Academy Ocean ColoHeliops 702 Helicopters Helicopter Flight Training

Subject: Military vs civilian PIC time
 
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Author Messages
flyingseapigUser is Offline
JH Newbie
JH Newbie
Posts:4

09/19/2006 10:31 PM  
I am in the process of leaving the military to pursue a career flying helos in the EMS industry. I am working on my resume and was wondering if anyone knows the proper way or if there is some type of equation to convert military PIC time to civilian. I have heard rumors that there is a conversion factor some people use to do this. As far as I know the only proper way according to the FAR is to log PIC time as time actually manipulating the controls or actaully signing for the aircraft as being responsible for the safety and conduct of the flight. I just want to ensure I properly represent myself to potential employers regarding my f light time in my resume. I assume being military we are at a disadvantage since most of our flying involves flying in dual piloted helicopters. If anyone has any amplifying information and references to this I would love to see it. Thanks and fly safe.
blackhawkguyUser is Offline
JH Member
JH Member
Posts:11

09/25/2006 8:37 PM  
I am an Army national guard pilot and I am also in a civilian CFI course so I had this same question. All time you flew that was logged as PC time will convert to PIC time in your civilian logbook. All time that you flew as PI but with an IP will count as PIC time. All time you logged as PI with another PC will count as second in command time. All of your NVG time can be logged as night and you should also make a column for NVG time on its own. This is very valuable for EMS. Block entries are ok. I hope this helps. -Mike
GOMERWANNABEUser is Offline
JH Member
JH Member
Posts:23

09/26/2006 4:40 AM  
Question for [u]blackhawkguy [/u]. Mike...I am also a Guard Apache guy and civilian EMS Helicopter Pilot and Base Manager. I am currently deployed but have a question. I was not aware of being able to log all my NVG time as Night Unaided. I would love the reference for that if you have time. Also, would that apply to FLIR time? The Apache is unique in that we are the only ones that fly wth a helmet mounted FLIR on one eye. Therefore i have much more time flying FLIR than I do flying NVG. We log it as NVD....night vision devices. As far as the original poster was concerned...still make sure you log as much REAL night un-aided as possible. Find the darkest country you can and fly as much as you can. EMS operations know the difference between REAL night-unaided and flying with NVG's. There is a big shortage of guys with real night-undaided time....not just time logged over your well lit local city. It is changing rapidly, but most EMS operations still operate undaided at night. Night unaided is a much higher demanding and dangerous (or less forgiving) form of flight than flying with goggles...if anyone tells you otherwise, just ask yourself one question: Why do military helicpters pilots never go out at night without FLIR or goggles anymore???????? At home or at war????? For the person interested in the EMS world, feel free to email me with any questions. I have limited internet access but will do my best to get back to you in a timely matter. Regards, Dave attack_pilot@msn.com
GOMERWANNABEUser is Offline
JH Member
JH Member
Posts:23

09/26/2006 4:40 AM  
Question for [u]blackhawkguy [/u]. Mike...I am also a Guard Apache guy and civilian EMS Helicopter Pilot and Base Manager. I am currently deployed but have a question. I was not aware of being able to log all my NVG time as Night Unaided. I would love the reference for that if you have time. Also, would that apply to FLIR time? The Apache is unique in that we are the only ones that fly wth a helmet mounted FLIR on one eye. Therefore i have much more time flying FLIR than I do flying NVG. We log it as NVD....night vision devices. As far as the original poster was concerned...still make sure you log as much REAL night un-aided as possible. Find the darkest country you can and fly as much as you can. EMS operations know the difference between REAL night-unaided and flying with NVG's. There is a big shortage of guys with real night-undaided time....not just time logged over your well lit local city. It is changing rapidly, but most EMS operations still operate undaided at night. Night unaided is a much higher demanding and dangerous (or less forgiving) form of flight than flying with goggles...if anyone tells you otherwise, just ask yourself one question: Why do military helicpters pilots never go out at night without FLIR or goggles anymore???????? At home or at war????? For the person interested in the EMS world, feel free to email me with any questions. I have limited internet access but will do my best to get back to you in a timely matter. Regards, Dave attack_pilot@msn.com
GOMERWANNABEUser is Offline
JH Member
JH Member
Posts:23

09/26/2006 4:40 AM  
Question for [u]blackhawkguy [/u]. Mike...I am also a Guard Apache guy and civilian EMS Helicopter Pilot and Base Manager. I am currently deployed but have a question. I was not aware of being able to log all my NVG time as Night Unaided. I would love the reference for that if you have time. Also, would that apply to FLIR time? The Apache is unique in that we are the only ones that fly wth a helmet mounted FLIR on one eye. Therefore i have much more time flying FLIR than I do flying NVG. We log it as NVD....night vision devices. As far as the original poster was concerned...still make sure you log as much REAL night un-aided as possible. Find the darkest country you can and fly as much as you can. EMS operations know the difference between REAL night-unaided and flying with NVG's. There is a big shortage of guys with real night-undaided time....not just time logged over your well lit local city. It is changing rapidly, but most EMS operations still operate undaided at night. Night unaided is a much higher demanding and dangerous (or less forgiving) form of flight than flying with goggles...if anyone tells you otherwise, just ask yourself one question: Why do military helicpters pilots never go out at night without FLIR or goggles anymore???????? At home or at war????? For the person interested in the EMS world, feel free to email me with any questions. I have limited internet access but will do my best to get back to you in a timely matter. Regards, Dave attack_pilot@msn.com
blackhawkguyUser is Offline
JH Member
JH Member
Posts:11

09/26/2006 8:23 AM  
Dave, If you go to part 61.51 in the FARAIM you will find a section on Pilot Logbooks. If you are in IRAQ there might not be a FARAIM in the entire country but you should be able to find this online. It asks for you to specify the "conditions of flight" as day or night. If you go to the front of the book you will find a definition for night. Which is "the time between evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight converted to local time". With respect to logbooks and logging night time the FAA does not appear to have any provisions for differentiating between aided and unaided. I think this is more of an employer requirement. As you stated the EMS community wants you to have unaided time so keeping a record of that is important as well as an NVG column since more ems companies are moving to that. However for the purposes of the logbook according to part 61 all time that falls under the above definition can be logged as night time. Good luck over there and get home safe. -Mike Disclaimer: I am by no means an expert on the FARAIM, this is just my observation as well as some very experienced military/civilian pilots.
GOMERWANNABEUser is Offline
JH Member
JH Member
Posts:23

09/27/2006 11:59 PM  
Thanks Mike....I'll look into that. I'm in Afghanistan and plan on downloading the current FARAIM soon. Dave
Corsair82User is Offline
JH Newbie
JH Newbie
Posts:2

01/28/2007 11:14 PM  
Old post, I know. Just couldn't help myself. Sure, at face value, 61.51 says day or night. Any (ex)military pilot that puts that on a resume and expects someone to not question it, and therefore everything else put on that now worthless piece of paper, is just thinning out the hiring pool. Save yourself some odd looks and dumb questions, all it takes is a little ink from the printer. If you log "night", log it. When you log "nvg", put that on your resume separately. There are more than enough ex-military reading your resume to see through that type of padding. Corsair82
GOMERWANNABEUser is Offline
JH Member
JH Member
Posts:23

01/29/2007 4:12 AM  
The simplest, most accrate and most informative way to take care of this night issue is to clearly spell it out on your resume. Here is how I decided to describe my night time on my current resume. It is similar to how you would break down your instrument TT time, into Hood and actual WX. Night TT.........................................1,006 Night Un-aided....................317 NVG...................................150 FLIR(helmet mounted).........539 The above description is legal, and is quite clear on what my experience actually is. It also co-incides with both my military 759 and civilian empoyment records so there should be no "red flags" raised. The only problem I've found over the years, and this may vary from unit to unit, is that some categories on the military 759 get combined, i.e. NVG and NVS (FLIR) all get lumped together under a "NS" category. Night un-aided (or Night Hawk in the old days) has just simply dropped off because no one fly's it any more. So, it is important to keep you own, accurate records in addition to the 759. I have learned this lesson the hard way. It is very difficult to go back and reconstruct flight records. I am not an IP/CFI so please, any corrections or suggestions would be greatly appreciated from anyone. If you would like, I can also email you my current resume so you can get an idea of how I set it up. It is only one of many different ways. As a prior base manager before this deployment, I can assure you that the "proffesional" aviation world is unfortunately full of pilots who pad the logbooks heavily and sometimes down right lie about their credentials. I had one guy show up just to collect his relocation allowance and we never saw him again. Bottom line, make sure you can back up the facts on the resume. If in doubt, it doesn't hurt to ask around like you are. You will find that whenever you or someone points out that there is only one way to do something in aviation, you or someone else will probably find a conflicting opion or reference. I hope this helps. Good luck. Dave
eriknjonesUser is Offline
JH Newbie
JH Newbie
Posts:2

07/14/2014 5:53 PM  
Posted By blackhawkguy on 09/25/2006 8:37 PM
I am an Army national guard pilot and I am also in a civilian CFI course so I had this same question. All time you flew that was logged as PC time will convert to PIC time in your civilian logbook. All time that you flew as PI but with an IP will count as PIC time. All time you logged as PI with another PC will count as second in command time. All of your NVG time can be logged as night and you should also make a column for NVG time on its own. This is very valuable for EMS. Block entries are ok. I hope this helps. -Mike


If possible, I would really like to see your reference on this. I am assuming this is also using your military flight records to reflect your time. I know most of our combat missions which I flew with our IP or SIP, they logged their time as the PC, to which I logged PI time. Also, almost ALL our night time was under NVGs and ALL instrument time was simulated (OH58D Kiowa). Anything to help validate your responses would be extremely appreciated, Thank you.
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Forums > JH Alternate Forum > General Helicopter Discussion > Military vs civilian PIC time



ActiveForums 3.7

Thousands of helicopter professionals from 160+ countries "worldwide" visit JustHelicopters.com every day, making it the Helicopter Industry's #1 Online Resource! Whether a Helicopter Pilot, Helicopter Student, Helicopter Mechanic, Employer, Helicopter Flight School, Helicopter Business, or an enthusiast, JustHelicopters.com has something for you.


© Copyright 2000–2012 Justhelicopters.com

Terms Of Use

Sign In

JustHelicopters.com

Password Assistance

Enter your account user name and click "Send Email".
A temporary password reset link will be emailed to you.

JustHelicopters.com User Registration

Your registration may be used to sign in to these sites:
JustHelicopters.com, VerticalReference.com and JustHelicopters.tv